Fall update won't play nice with Sony 1080p TVs
by Ken Weeks 
{ Oct 31st 2006 at 11:59PM }
Angry owners in the AVS forum report that the Fall Update's vaunted 1080p support works as advertised with Samsung HDTVs -- but not with two of Sony's most popular (and expensive) 1080p LCD models XBR2/3:
I just had the time to quickly start poking around with the 360 dashboard update, and I'm sorry to report that 1080p is broken on the XBR2 via both component and VGA. When I select 1080p in VGA, I get a windowboxed picture with tons of info cut off on both sides and a warning from the TV saying "Invalid Signal--Check Your PC Output". Over component, when I select 1080p I get a screen full of static for 10 seconds before the console reverts to 1080i.
Feh. Since the XBR2 is one of the most high-profile, wildely available 1080p displays on the market, you'd think MS' engineers would find a way to get the two to work together, but noooooo...
Feh. Since the XBR2 is one of the most high-profile, wildely available 1080p displays on the market, you'd think MS' engineers would find a way to get the two to work together, but noooooo...
While it's outrageous to suggest that MS would intentionally blacklist their rival's most popular HDTVs, it is amusingly ironic -- unless you're staring at a $4000 distorted screen right now. Another patch could be imminent. It's worth pointing out that most people on that thread say they're going to return their Sony set, not their Xbox 360. And, as usual, someone comments that an upscaled 1080i signal is indiscernible anyway.
Sidenote: The general public doesn't have a prayer of grasping this stuff.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Sagat @ Nov 1st 2006 12:19AM
Ive got the KDL40XBR2; one of the models they're talking about. I've been feeding it 1920x1080 (its really all progressive anyways) via VGA since day 1; this is a problem on the XBOX side of the equation.
Carnie @ Nov 1st 2006 12:53AM
I find this funny for the fact that its MICROSOFT not putting it into the patch...you can't tell me that sony put a source code in their tv's to stop 360s from playing on it....
I could be reading to much into this...but it seems that the console war is going to spread beyond the consoles....
Ed @ Nov 1st 2006 12:59AM
It looks to me like the problem is that Microsoft is doing sync-on-green for the VGA only at 1920x1080, and separate h/v-sync at lower resolutions.
Why they did this, I don't know. It only affects sets that can't handle sync on green over VGA, like the XBR2/3.
I haven't heard of this problem with any other 1080p set, and, as I've mentioned before, my 1080p set is working fine. 1920x1080x60hz, flawlessly.
Now I just need some 1080p XBLA games... or maybe 1080p table tennis. Mmmm.
Tom @ Nov 1st 2006 12:59AM
The problem's not with the Xbox 360. The problem is with the TV. Any Computer Scientist could tell you that! :)
Ideal @ Nov 1st 2006 2:15AM
Well, I don't have the LCD models, but I just recently acquired the KDS-R60XBR2.. the rear projection 1080p SXRD set.
This TV does not take 1080p over component... but it should do it over hdmi and 1920x1080 vga.. but for some reason it doesn't do the vga, probably what the other poster said about green sync..
It sucks but not too bummed out because of it. Maybe an HDMI cable for the 360 can remedy the situation.
flaco @ Nov 2nd 2006 1:08PM
the original sony xbr does not display 1080p although it has that many pixels it was one of the big complaints and a reason they came out with the new xbr models
Dave @ Nov 1st 2006 2:23AM
I wonder how people would react if all new Sony TV's were completely incompatible with the Xbox 360... They'd probably even blame Microsoft for it.
David Wright @ Nov 1st 2006 4:02AM
Great, Ive always been a sony fanboy, but ever since I went through 2 PSX's and 2 PS2's Plus a damn expensive TV I thought, hey what the hell am I opening my wallet to. So I bought an Xbox 1 (which by the way is bulletproof!), My new 40" LE40R74BDX Samsung LCD HDTV works great and the picture quality dwarfs the Sony, And also another note on build quality, My 360 is a launch console and has been in a head-on car crash (with me in the car) it slammed on the dash and then the floor, and still works, (albeit with a screw rolling around inside it) but, THATS GOOD BUILD QUALITY!!
So it doesn't suprise me that sony TV's dont work, I HAD ONE, IT WAS TERRIBLE!
GhostDoggy @ Nov 1st 2006 5:48AM
Sagat, 1920x1080? since day one? I find this amazing because since the launch of the 360 1920x1080i support via VGA was withdrawn by Microsoft, and is what got me upset with them in the first place. Are you sure you were getting 1920x1080i out via VGA since day 1?
crym fytr @ Nov 1st 2006 6:48AM
GhostDoggy, pretty sure Sagat is saying he's been giving his TV 1080p over VGA since day 1. Based on what he said--one cannot even know if he owns a 360. He is just stating that his tv is cabable of the resolution over the same hookup so as to cast suspicion on the 360's communication with the Sony line. I don't know who's to blame, I like my 360 and my 1080p tv, and they work fine together.
Nick James @ Nov 1st 2006 7:11AM
This is the most retarded specualtion I ahve ever seen. It's not a matter of anyone blackballing anyone or locking out hardware intentionally. Christ.
Matt @ Nov 1st 2006 7:18AM
David,
The "screw loose" inside might just be the thing that rattles around inside all 360s which helps detect if it's vertical or horizontal. It does that so the ring of light is correct.
VGA doesn't support interlaced video as far as I know since it's designed for computers and you don't want interlaced video on a computer.
Frosty22 @ Nov 1st 2006 7:39AM
Matt:
So that's what the noisy little thing is! I always wondered if I did something to my 360 that knocked something loose in there! Thanks for that post.
J.Goodwin @ Nov 1st 2006 7:47AM
I know there's a sensor, but I've never heard anything rattling in my 360.
Either way, if it works, why complain?
What's interesting is that Microsoft does very extensive testing of compatibility by going into big box retail stores and just hooking up to everything in sight after store hours. I'm sure they're aware of this problem.
Red @ Nov 1st 2006 8:20AM
This happened to me on my Samsung HDTV. I spent a couple of hours with the 360 Tech team and they didn't know what was going on. They even told me to go to my ISP because they thought it was a short.
They are sending a new component cable, but, after reading this, I don't think that's the problem
Stew @ Nov 1st 2006 3:55PM
A vast number of Sony's 1080p sets will only support 1080p via HDMI, the Sony manual says as much in the back.
Kim Naroz @ Nov 1st 2006 10:00AM
Here are the facts:
(1) Sony is the one to blame, not Microsoft.
(2) The reason Sony is to blame is because they are manufacturing overpriced expensive HDTV sets that are not as technologically advanced as their competitors, especially Samsung.
(3) Samsung has been manufacturing HDTV sets since April of 2006 that can both Accept and Display 1080p resolution through the HDMI 1.3 cable Input, the 15-pin VGA cable Input, and the Component cable Input.
(4) Even Sony's newest batch of 1080p HDTV sets that were released in October of 2006 STILL cannot Accept a 1080p signal from the Component cable Inputs.
(5) Sony's newest batch of 1080p HDTV sets released in October of 2006 only Accept a 1080p signal from the HDMI 1.3 cable Input and “potentially” the 15-pin VGA Input, but definitely not the Component cable Input.
(6) Obviously, Sony's HDTV sets are now two full six-month launch seasons behind Samsung's HDTVs. This is the reason why Samsung received all of the HDTV awards at the January 2006 Consumer Electronics Show, while Sony was not given much attention.
(7) If you want to take a look at these facts, you can do so by looking at a website that lists detailed specifications on HDTV sets. Crutchfield is an excellent website that lists detailed specifications that tell what resolutions the different Inputs can Accept.
(8) Samsung's HLS-5087W, HLS-5687W, HLS-6187W, HLS-5088W, HLS-5688W, and HLS-6188W were released in April of 2006, and all of them Accept 1080p signals via Component video Inputs. You can read about these at this link: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-3Ov0TpTAzij/cgi-bin/Prodview.asp?readmore=true&search=hls%2D5087w&i=305HLS5087#Tab
(9) Also, if you go to this Crutchfield website and click on the Download Instruction Manual link, if you look on page 100-102, you will see that the Samsung HDTVs are capable of Accepting resolutions of 1920x1200p from a 15-pin PC source such as the Xbox 360 VGA cable, which is more than enough to handle the 1920x1080p requirement. Page 102 even says that it performs optimally at a resolution of 1920x1080p. You can read all about this at: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wAdiWm4CIAA/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=147350&tab=detailed_info&i=305HLS5087#Tab
(10) If you go to Samsung's website, they have an excellent way for you to look at their HDTV products by simply typing in the name of the product and downloading the instruction manual. Here is a link to one of their products: http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/DLPTV/HLS5088WXXAA.asp
(11) Even Sony's newest released products STILL do NOT Accept a 1080p signal via Component video Input. You can read about this here: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-gg7qvAtK0E3/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=146350&I=158KD52XB3 and also here http://www.crutchfield.com/S-pya6mzJrzQu/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=KDSR60XBR2&i=158SR60XB2
(12) Sony's HDTVs also have a problem with the way that 1080p signals are Accepted by the 15-pin PC connection would be made with an Xbox 360. On page 77 of Sony's Instruction Manual for the KDS-R60XBR2 HDTV, it says, "The TV's PC Input does not support interlaced signals." Well, the Xbox 360 now upconverts all signals to 1080p (if you set it to) before the signal reaches the Sony HDTV; therefore, the Sony HDTV is not dealing with Interlaced signals, and according to the instruction manual, it should work fine, just like the Samsung HDTVs. The problem is that people are saying that it doesn’t work properly.
From a speculative point of view, if you have your Xbox 360 set to 1080i, this may be the reason why it isn't working properly, because although the signal is received by the Sony HDTV at a resolution of 1080p, it originally started out at 1080i. When you have your Xbox 360 system at 720p, the resolution is upconverted in a way that never involves interlaced signals. Although the Xbox 360 eventually outputs 1080p either way, because the Xbox 360 upconverts to 1080p resolution, if you have your Xbox 360 system set to start out at 1080i, that may be the cause of the problem, and it might be corrected by setting it to start out at 720p.
Sony's HDTV is to blame if the Xbox 360 doesn't work when the Xbox 360 starts out at 1080p or 720p and is upconverted to 1080p. You can read Sony's instruction manual for that here by clicking on "Download User Instruction Manual": http://www.crutchfield.com/S-pya6mzJrzQu/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=147350&tab=detailed_info&i=158SR60XB2#Tab
(13) One thing is clear: Samsung makes HDTVs that are FAR superior to Sony HDTVs, at a much more reasonable price. Samsung received the award for Best HDTV at the Consumer Electronics Show in January 2006. We won't see a Sony HDTV capable of Accepting 1080p video Input for at least another 6 months in the spring of 2007, which puts Sony at least one full year behind Samsung.
Joe @ Nov 1st 2006 10:06AM
Add Mitsubishi 1080p tv's to the list. I chose 1080p and the screen went black. Got an email into support but haven't heard anything back.
Lucky @ Nov 1st 2006 3:14PM
@#15: Best post summing up this issue.
I too believe that Sony is ignoring the fact that 1080p can be achieved via other methods (component & vga) just to push their format and the hdmi (w/ copyright protection).
We have seen this behavior ("Our way, or NO WAY") for many years now with Sony. Hmm, does betamax, minidv, umd, psp only supporting Sony formats (audio & video) come to mind??
I would not hold it past them (Sony) to never include these types of video input, just for the simple fact that the 360 & HDDVD are using this type of connection, to allow for a greater legacy support.
Microsoft has made this clear that they do not wish for EVERYONE to have and replace their recently purchased former HDTV's (which only had component & DVI interfaces) just to get the new-fangled HDMI interface.
Anyhow, just my thoughts after reading up on all the FACTS of the situation.
And the "sync-on-green" thing is a great topic to lookup on the net, you can see that it has been around and in practice for many years!
http://playstation2-linux.com/sog.php
uses "sync-on-green" signal
perhaps, they are trying to weed out the use of these "hacks?"
or, aware the 360 outputs as such?? :)
other interesting tidbits
http://www.everything2.com/?node=sync+on+green
Mike @ Nov 1st 2006 10:33AM
sounds to me like there is a "demand" for that HDMI cable for the 360. It also seems to me that since it was leaked from various places to come decemberish. Microsoft is fully aware of the 1080p issues with alot of tvs, and their solution next month will be for you to purchase their hdmi cable
Gold Farmer @ Nov 1st 2006 11:00AM
In Your Face Flanders!
LushMojo @ Nov 1st 2006 12:21PM
Dearest Kim Nimrod,
It's not just the Sony sets that are doing this. According to the AVSform thread regarding the Sony XBRs, there is a gentleman with a Samsung 244T that has issues as well. I've read on 3 other forums that as many as 4 brands are having issues. Microsoft is supposedly working on a fix that should be out within a week or so.
Your incredibly....um.....long post seems to be incorrect then. It's okay though. We get the idea - you don't like Sony, but you LOVE Samsung. Everyone needs a theme. You obviously have yours.
Good night and good luck.
PS - here's that thread so you can do hours of research: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=707726&page=53&pp=30&highlight=sony+xbr2+bravia
Riffix @ Nov 1st 2006 12:35PM
#15 is right, the problem is with the Sony TVs and not the XBOX 360.
However, what they didn't mention was the fact that most of the Sony TVs like the KDS-R60XBR1/2 DISPLAY 1080p as their native res. Their solution has been to not trust the source of a strange HD signal ("you are not the True HD!" and just upconvert all signals such as 1080i to 1080p internally.
So if you have one such TV and you have been feeding it 1080i, in theory you have been watching as good as you can see the whole time, the only difference is that it is the TV doing the conversion instead of the XBOX360. I have no idea if there would even be a noticable difference if the TV did accept 1080p.
But it is indeed silly that the TVs do not accept a res they can display and the behavior that you get over the VGA input (I have an KDS-R60XBR1) is all kinds of nuts(I have not been able to get any signal from a computer, 360, or otherwise to display across the full screen over VGA but did over DVI converted to HDMI.)
It seems that Sony feels that not only is 1080p the only "True HD" but that the only way to pass that along is through the only "True HD Connection" which is HDMI. I Guess we know now why the PS3 has HDMI by default....
ZeroCorpse @ Nov 1st 2006 3:09PM
One More Time:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS INTERLACED VIDEO ON AN LCD MONITOR OR SCREEN!!!
LCD is BY ITS VERY NATURE progressive. It can't be interlaced because it doesn't shoot scan lines at the screen the same way a CRT does. If you play 1080i on an LCD screen, you're looking at 1080p in the final display, because the HDTV/Monitor HAS to upscale any interlaced signal, and in 95% of the cases, the 1080p display from a 1080i source is not discernible from a 1080p display from a "1080p" source.
My HDTV doesn't accept 1080p signals. It does accept 1080i signals, though, and when I see the final image on my screen, it is effectively 1080p. It is a progressive image with no alternating scan lines. ALL LCD SCREENS THAT ARE "1080i" DO THIS.
You will not see much difference. It's not worth spending mucho bucks to get a 1080p input-capable HDTV when the 1080i input-capable HDTVs look just as good, and cost FAR less.
You're all being baited into buying the newest, greatest when it's not all that new, or all that great... At least not any more new or great than what has been around for years now.
Dark Morford @ Nov 1st 2006 5:23PM
Right now, I'm looking at the manual for a Sony KDS-R60XBR2 television. On the Specifications page (page 78), it lists the accepted signal formats for the component video inputs: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i. No mention of 1080p. So that's one half of this taken care of.
On page 77, the manual gives a PC Input Signal Reference Chart. While HDTV (1080p/60) is listed, it warns "This TV's PC input does not support Sync on Green or Composite Sync." If, as has been suggested, the Xbox 360 uses Sync on Green for its VGA 1080p output, then it should come as no surprise that the two units don't work together.
This isn't to say that either company is completely at fault. Sony's TVs don't support a particular input method, and for whatever reason (be it a glitch, technical difficulty, conspiracy, or what have you), the Xbox 360's 1080p output seems to use that particular method. It does look to be Microsoft's problem to fix, though, since I doubt it's possible to simply issue a firmware upgrade for the TV.
Disclaimer: I don't own an XBR2, or any HDTV for that matter. My TV is a 27" RCA that only does 480i. I'm looking at the manual available at http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=158SR60XB2&tab=detailed_info.
Sagat @ Nov 1st 2006 5:45PM
Sorry.. 1080p from my 2 year old PC via VGA.
Randy @ Nov 1st 2006 8:30PM
Westinghouse 47" 1080p, via comp input, no problems.
Detective @ Nov 2nd 2006 2:07PM
Man, some of you are way, way off. This is absolutely a Microsoft issue that should be correctable. Can you armchair HDTV "experts" please sit down or go play in the yard or something?
Kim Naroz's post is proof positive that a long, seemingly well-thought post can be just as full of BS as some idiot writing a 1-liner full of spelling errors and insults.
This issue is not limited to the Sony sets. Microsoft put out an untested, flawed patch. Whether they are able to fix it, I don't know. It SSEMS fixable, as Microsoft needs to adjust their horizontal frequency output for 1080p, which is not conforming to ANY industry standard. The fact that it does not support DDC is also a problem on Microsoft's end - again, DDC is an industry standard that is not at all uncommon.
Your facts are nonsense.
Speaking as someone who can't stand Sony, but will not align themselves/discriminate against a product because of the brand name, you're completely wrong. The Samsung does offer a fine picture but the overscan/lack of 1:1 pixel mapping is a strike against it when used for gaming/PC display. The Sony offers a superior picture and connectivity. If you disagree, your experience with the Sony must be limited to looking at it in-store...which is NEVER how a videophile judges a TV.
Matt @ Nov 3rd 2006 1:53PM
Sorry DETECTIVE, but I believe the facts, not your craplies.
Baruch @ Nov 12th 2006 4:55PM
Funny that there is an standard format to supply hd images...
if this were in php code it probably look like this:
Barrington D. Thompson @ Nov 23rd 2006 11:29PM
BEST EXTREMELY URGENT & IMPORTANT TO ALL READERS!
NB! It is interesting, but for whatever the
reason it appears that nobody actually knows
what is needed to get high definition (HD)
Picture quality!?
NB! Reading through the various messages, people
have been claiming that it is possible to
get HD using;
1) Component and
2) VGA sockets
but I think that it is impossible to get HD!
NB! To guarantee that you can get HD you require
the following;
1) An HD source (HD; film, programme or game)
2) Require HD boxes (HD; Cable, Satelite, games
machine, DVD, AVR (Audio, Video Receiver etc.)
3) Virtually every HD product must have either
A) DVI socket but preferably
B) HDMI socket
1: I think DVI as being obsolete because
A: Film studios and broadcasters cannot
encrypt music using DVI.
B: One aim of HD is to improve its
encryption compared to DVD's
encryption for sound and audio.
C: Why create two sockets
* DVI and
* One for sound
When one will do and save money also!
C) People have forgotten that
1: AACS is an encrption program for the
software
2: Each HDMI has got an encryption program
called, 'HDCP'.
D) The purpose of, 'HDCP' is to ask each of
the simple questions:-
1: Has this product (hardware)
for example HD TV, using an HDMI socket?
2: Has the HDMI got
an HDCP (encryption software)?
3: If the source material for example
films or programmes requires that
HDCP should be ON (available), but
HDCP is OFF (not available) then
HDCP should automatically downgrade the
signal to Standard Definition (SD).
NB! I don't like using the term SD
standard.
This is because there are numerous
different types of SD resolutions
(analogues and digitals).
4) Therefore, if a signal is inputted through
A)The VGA or Component
NB! The source material might demand
1: That the HDCP must be ON!
But if it,
A: Either doesnot exist because
* VGA or Component doesnot contain
HDCP.
* This is, because only DVI and HDCP
contains HDCP.
* Even HD source material will be
downgraded!
* Therefore, people claiming that
there is a problem - are wrong!
- unless, I have missed something
but I don't think so!
The official HDMI organisation's website (FAQ) is
http://hdmi.org/about/faq.asp
NB! If you want HD then you must use DVI or
preferably HDMI!
NB! Why do you think that hundreds of
organisations have paid the HDMI licence fees?
NB! The first question, which you should ask
yourself when buying any HD product is does
it have the both the new designed HDMI 1.3,
which the establishment; editors, retailers,
manufacturers, Cable and satelite companies
appear to be keeping a secret, amongst other
things!!!
NB! Patches are probably nothing due to allowing
HD through VGA and component but HDCP
compatibility problems - another secret!!!
Barrington D. Thompson @ Nov 24th 2006 12:06AM
BEST - Extra more extremely urgent information.
Some editors have claimed that it is possible to obtain high definition standard pictures using component and VGA.
BUT!!! I am at least 99% certain that no
manufacturer either on their websites or
in their manuals would state that it is
possible!
If you want independent proof then ask, the experts who decides what the criteria is, the official HDMI organization:
http://hdmi.org/about/faq.asp
gt350 @ Dec 3rd 2006 7:44PM
Sony's the problem. company wide poor quality control, a copyright dept that is causing compatibility issues. with a customer service dept that cant really help. So remember, this is the New Sony, not the one that made it great.