N+ creators stand behind their anti-XBLA rant

by Dustin Burg { Mar 24th 2008 at 2:00PM }

Last Friday, we told you about a Gamasutra interview with N+ creators Raigan Burns and Mare Sheppard and how angry they were about the XBLA, how angry they were about the services' crappy games and how angry they were about how Microsoft is handling things. Their opinion was nothing but blunt and to the point. Then, shortly after their harsh comments made the internet media rounds, Burns and Sheppard felt the need to post a response in regards to their remarks on their metanet blog and, well ... they have no apologies.

In their response blog titled "In Defense of the Apparant Shitstorm", Burns and Sheppard stand behind their anger fueled XBLA rant, but do clarify that they were made prior to N+'s release and right after they learned about Microsoft's new (and less generous) XBLA royalty structure. But like we said, in their response blog team metanet stands behind their earlier comments and actually went on to add to the controversy, saying; "it's not our fault that the vast majority of XBLA games suck! Literally every single person we've ever spoken with is in agreement on this, and yet it's apparently shocking for gamers in general to hear (assuming that's who reads joystiq/kotaku)." There you have it folks. Confirmed. The XBLA has sucky games.

Tags: metanet, metanet-software, n, xbla

Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)

Arno @ Mar 24th 2008 2:06PM

Thank you Captain Obvious!

jkdoug @ Mar 24th 2008 2:13PM

Yes, there are several crappy games on the XBLA. Probably greater than 9 out of 10 don't even get a second glance from me or my wife. We were even disappointed with Worms for various reasons, and we had high hopes for that before its release.

Ah, well, at least I'm happy with Puzzle Quest and Carcassone...

Magic Whiskey @ Mar 24th 2008 2:15PM

So I wanna know what games exactly are the titles the N+ creators are referring to.

Games like Geometry Wars, Castlevania: SOTN, Hexic, Bomberman Live, REZ, Turtles Arcade, Bankshot Billiards, Assault Heroes, Heavy Weapon and upcoming titles like Ikaruga, and Castle Crashers don't sound like the library of crap to me! I'd actually go as far as to say that the XBLA is the linchpin of why the 360 is my favorite console yet made (If you add in LIVE and the retail games library.)

Of course you have some crap titles like the Yaris game and IMO, Undertow...but there are some titles on any games library that aren't great. The great games on the XBLA however are in the majority.

Ejab @ Mar 24th 2008 2:17PM

XBLA does not suck, they suck, and what the f@ck is wrong with classic games? I love classic games, suck balls you emo douchebags, I was gonna buy N+ but not anymore.

Azshros @ Mar 24th 2008 2:20PM

I dont get it.... I thought N+ was one of the suckier games on XBLA right now.... why are they complaining if they are adding to the crap pile?

Mr.ESC @ Mar 24th 2008 2:20PM

So? Every system has crappy games in their library like the Wii even the Xbox 360.

The developers have the fault for the horrible games also that no one will buy them.

I think what MS should be less restrictive about what you can't and can do in a xlive game but about sucky games there’s nothing you can do about except contacting every developer and tell them stop sucking so much.

Preston Crawford @ Mar 24th 2008 2:22PM

XBLA is the linchpin for me as well. Were it not for XBLA the only non-shooters I would be left to play that were 360 specific would be Viva Pinata and Lost Odyssey. Skate I could play on a PS3. If I had a PS3 that was BC I would have access to a wealth of unique, original games. I feel the 360 lacks these and XBLA closes the gap enough that I don't get wandering eyes for the PS3 or even re-purchasing a PS2.

That said, the games I enjoy on the XBLA are still limited. I own Geometry Wars, Castlevania, Catan, Carcassonne, Pac-Man: CE, Rez HD and a few others. Oh, and soon N+. For me the garbage to quality ration is far too high in favor of the garbage.

PerfectStrategy @ Mar 24th 2008 2:22PM

Well it looks like someone DDoS'ed their website. Oops.

I would say most of the XBLA games are good, and quite a few are great. A select few are crappy, but so what, the more games the better imo. There are crappy games in retail stores also, you aren't forced to buy them. And with free demos of every arcade game and cheap prices, how the hell can you complain?

slyecho @ Mar 24th 2008 2:25PM

Of course a lot of games on XBLA suck. Thats the point! It was made for publishing games that would never sell in retail. And that's why you have a demo version of every single one of them!

KingOfGods @ Mar 24th 2008 2:26PM

Sure there are crap games but there are also lots of really good ones as well. I hate that they turn around and put there game on the very service that they bashed. If the service is trash because there are bad games on it, then what does that make the PS2? The crap shovel ware on the PS2 far out weighs the gems on that console.

I wish I would have known about these comments they made prior to me purchasing their game. I definitely would have passed.

Their game isn't the greatest game ever...its a basic way to waste time at best.

Mr.ESC @ Mar 24th 2008 2:30PM

Magic Whiskey:

Bankshot Billiards was actually a bad game but at least was free in the purchase of the xlive gold then again I rather have those 1200p than that game.

Yaris, well it is bad but at least is free also that I rather have a bad xbox live game for free than a constant intrusion of ads in the dashboard.

Undertow well I think it was good I was going to buy that one anyway but thanks for a xlive issue that never bother me because I was playing Super Mario Galaxy then I got a free game also I don’t why people hate it, I think it is a good game.

Now that stuff like Rocketmen ,Wing commander, Battle star Galactica etc are awful. Rocketmen is so bad is actually funny but funny like the first seconds of any Uwe Boll movie before you know start feeling dead inside.

Just to make a point here http://www.gamespot.com/games.html?type=live_arcade&platform=10291&mode=all&sort=score&dlx_type=all&sortdir=desc

A list of every Xbox live game according to gamespot and the one with the lowest score is 2.0 but most games go from 6.0 and up. So they are pretty much exaggerating.

I would like to tell you people that Exit is an under rated title, yeah the plat forming section isn’t strong but the puzzle section makes up for it.

jedi55555 @ Mar 24th 2008 2:32PM

I too love a lot of XBLA games. Sure they have their share of crap games but I own more games for the 360 than any other console in a long time because a lot of them are XBLA games.

AoE @ Mar 24th 2008 2:32PM

Hahaha, the irony of all of this, for me personally at least, is that I grabbed the demo of N+ when a friend was over one night and after we both tried it (and before this controversy started), We both agreed that it was crap like this game that made the demo option so appealing, and what was going on at MS HQ that the best they could come up with for XBLA that week was this crappy homebrew game?

Mark @ Mar 24th 2008 2:35PM

I see more crappy stuff on the Wii and DS than I do for XBLA. But no one's forcing me to buy any games on any system, so I don't see how it matters that there are crap games on them.

Dick @ Mar 24th 2008 2:35PM

I respect the right to people's opinions, but anyone named Preston Crawford can stfu, with your snooty ass high-falootin name.

Kizzle @ Mar 24th 2008 2:39PM

They made N+, which is isn't better than "good" at the most. Who the fuck are they to judge? Once they release a few more solid games, maybe they'll be worth taking seriously.

"Literally every single person we've ever spoken with is in agreement on this," - yeah, well, looks like you need to speak to more than your fellow employees or something, because your "opinion" on this situation is so insular and stupid it's laughable.

Magic Whiskey @ Mar 24th 2008 2:39PM

Mr ESC and everyone else:

I would point you all to the service that MS offers within the XBLA; free demos. I never bother to read online reviews of games I can just as easily review for myself; just those I might not want to spend $7.50 on for a disc rental from Blockbuster or the like.
No, XBLA games-wise, I always demo titles i'm even slightly interested in and I suggest everyone do the same.

Bankshot was a great pool game, I feel. It got even better when I learned about the camera angles:) I play XBLA titles as I listen to podcasts (or Fancasts) and they make great 'non FPS' games to play with buddies, Bankshot included. What can I say? I like pool. I'd probably look into buying a Skeeball game, too... if it was as solid as BB is.

Mr.ESC @ Mar 24th 2008 2:40PM

PerfectStrategy what is DDoS? I mean I have heard that term before in 4chan but what does that mean I know is bad but I don't know what it does.Help a n00b pls.

I would also like to agree with KinfOfGods.N+ is a good game but is not enough to set you as an example of a developer or how a super special awesome game should be.

N+ is a great game but it has some of the worst problem I have encounter dragging the game to a decent score for example.

1-Incredible amounts of lag in co-op mode
2-The game doesn’t save your progress unless you go to settings.
3-If anyone participates in a single player episode in co-op mode the host is the only one that gets the progress, the rest get nothing like if they haven’t played that episode at all.
4-Survival mode is interesting but is not good enough to keep the game alive for long.
5-Some co-op episodes need 3 or more players so if you start the game with 2 players is really a b*tch to suddenly find out you need another person. There should be a warning or something.
6-Having to do the whole episode again because the host disconnected is just plain bad, I would like to do the 4 part of the episode not the whole episode again.

Tony @ Mar 24th 2008 2:48PM

I don't really think it matters. Obviously someone out there enjoys these games I think suck. Just like the N+ games probably hate things other people love. N+ is a great game, but being a game developer doesn't not automatically mean your choice in games is better than everyone else's. I don't think they're implying that whatsoever, but I do think that's what people are inferring from it.

A LOT of XBLA games do suck. I'd say just as many retail games suck, though. It's quite subjective. I can latch on to a batch of crappy XBLA games, but I could also latch on to a batch of great ones. People tend to remember the crap more on anything.

Their complaints about XBLA's potential (originally) as a haven for new ideas that wouldn't work in retail are completely valid though. Several developers have commented now on how it's basically just like the retail space. There's priority for big names, it requires a major publisher (whether it's MS or otherwise), etc. In some ways I feel like they enforce almost too much control on it, something that's becoming more and more apparent when you read more about PSN's setup or the upcoming Wiiware.

I think certainly it's easier to put something together when you're following the lead guy, though. MS has had to do a lot of things with LIVE that other console manufacturers haven't and of course that leads to mistakes. Sony and Nintendo have had the benefit of learning from them before they hit the market, but they also have the benefit of being able to undercut MS in terms of royalties and support because they're far more starved for content currently. I really wonder how either of them would act if they had no competition or were first to do this.

I'm hoping the community games set up rectifies this, I don't know. It seems more like what a lot of smaller developers were hoping for with XBLA, so I guess that's a plus. It certainly seems like a lot of them aren't exactly happy with the royalty setup as it is.

Mr.ESC @ Mar 24th 2008 2:48PM

Magic Whiskey

I always check what I'm buying except for Wing commander because well the title lure me into a trap. I was a big fan of WC back in my PC days, is like if suddenly someone released battletanks under the name of Mechwarrior.

Checking websites is never a bad idea since you get a general idea of what you are going to buy. Going to Blockbuster and rent the game well the truth I don’t have time for that also that there is rarely a game I want to rent but is also a good idea.

Well at least someone liked BB,I think it was quite lame I mean Pool games are free in fact all the games included in the xlive gold pack like Joust are free in the internet just check Midway site .Again I rather have those 1600 points and buy the games I like. I dislike pool because I used to play it for free anywhere and to be honest for me is quite boring.

SugarDaddy @ Mar 24th 2008 2:49PM

All you people that are saying "N+ is good but..." need to be corrected. N+ is NOT good. It's painfully boring. The developers have no standing to comment on the other games on XBLA. Take a stand will ya... Enough of this wishy washy bullshit.

Magic Whiskey @ Mar 24th 2008 2:54PM

I didn't like N+ enough (in my review:) ) to spend $10 bucks on it and I'm glad now; I plan to use that 800 MS point value to get something I will get MUCH more use out of; the Cod4 maps on the 4th :)

I think the bottom line we should all just resign ourselves to (without anyone getting smacked) is that no game console in history has ever had a library of nothing but A+ titles.

If it wasn't for the secondary games market like the Wii VC, the Sony Store (I think it's called) and the XBLA, we as gamers wouldn't have the chance to CHOOSE FOR OURSELVES what is good and what isn't..game development is too costly to offer 'iffy' games any other way. If we didn't have these digital download games and the services I listed a second ago, we as hardcore gamers would be forced down the funnel of sacrifice.

Game creation, development and sales cost buku bucks well before the first dollar is made. I for one am glad to see stellar, good, decent, mediocre and crap titles on the XBLA. Why? It shows that people are given a chance, even if there won't be a lot of money to be made. These chances are given not only to the developers to offer what they feel is fun (and a chance for the community to support them), but also, to us. It's a chance for us to try out some unsure things that otherwise would NEVER see a disc stamped out, package art paid for, and shelf space cleared for.

So yeah..let's stop arguing..there's always good and bad with any game console, and we should be happy to choose for ourselves.

As for the N+ developers comments...there's two ways to digest them:

1) any artist in a competing market will always try to top the rest of the pack and feel their offering is the 'best', so don't we shouldn't chastise them too too much for trying.

2) Money talks. If they didn't get the money they wanted or were promised, then these comments could be the sour grapes rantings of a hissyfit-activated child and not a mature developer.

Whetever. Blah.

Edidid @ Mar 24th 2008 8:19PM

N+ is at best a demonstration of basic physics principals in a game, but XBLA has a better example of physics programming with Roboblitz.

XBLA does have a lot of lackluster and subpar games, but N+ is part of that list. Look at the Wii and DS retail game displays and you will realize how few quality games are actually being produced copmared to how many total games are released.

The issue isn't specific to XBLA by any means.

violenceinhd @ Mar 24th 2008 3:11PM

They're absolutely right, the XBLA is full of shit titles. Only a select few are good. Rez being the absolute.

Cerixus @ Mar 24th 2008 3:14PM

Again I say, 90% of XBLA titles are good, great. N+ should be named F+. It's total shite. It's not even worth the free download on Windows, why would I pay 5-10 bucks for it on XBLA?

stinger503 @ Mar 24th 2008 3:16PM

Good Games: Aegis Wing, Boom Boom Rocket, Pac Man CE, Marble Blast Ultra, Outpost Kaloki X, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Zuma, Worms, Switchball, Hexic HD, Uno, Chessmaster. And those are just the ones I've bought so far. Also like Mr.ESC said there's only a few under 5.0 which for the limited space and low cost is really good in my opinion.

Ciaran Gallagher @ Mar 24th 2008 3:17PM

It does not have crappy games!! My only rant is that the games are there are a *little* too expensive - £8.50/$17 for an 800ms game or £4.25/$8.50 for a 400ms game. 'Better' games will probably take up more space anyway, and I only have a 20gb drive and the 120gb drive is far too expensive...

Sean @ Mar 24th 2008 3:17PM

I think there is an easy fix for this... let users rate the games. This way you could sort the game lists based on community ratings.
Of course, to be fair, you could only rank games you actually bought.
I think this would go a long way to easing developer concerns about trying to sell a game in the vast pool that is XBLA.

Stranger @ Mar 24th 2008 3:18PM

I'd hardly call their comments "anger filled".

If you read the entire interview and not just the qoutes everyone is recycling from it they simply share their honest (and very valid) critique of the XBLA service in relation to how it fails both developers and end users. Are their words harsh? A little, but not a single complaint they levy is without merit, nor is there any "anger" in their tone. Way to sensationalize a story rather than highlight the true merit of the N+ developers comments: somebody has to tell MS that they're railroading what should otherwise be a great service. Props to the little guys for finally being the ones to say it.

XBLA is full of bad knock offs and mediocre rehashes of games that have been made time and again for decades; so diluted is the content and so poor is the XBLA navigation interface, that "new" or "original" games struggle to get noticed, much less purchased.

There's no marketing beyond release, no real support from MS (who won't even share general sales information with XBLA devs), while MS dictates the release dates with an arbitrary regard for the developers (or gamers) best interests. It's plain stupid, and it's about time that somebody publicly bash the service a little.

Now I love many of the remakes I've bought on XBLA, love 'em... but the way MS is restricting new content to a trickle of two games a week, and balancing said releases for the sake of genre variety (as determined by someone in marketing, no doubt), is just dumb. You got six games ready to go? JUST. RELEASE. THEM. The two a week garbage has got to go...

The best idea the N+ guys had was in dividing the XBLA into two tiers like "Classic" and "Original" titles instead of lumping all 100+ games on the service into a single text-based submenu. Why hasn't someone thought of this already?

All you have to differentiate one game from another is the title and a gif image until you commit to downloading it the demo. That's just dumb. When it TMNT arcade the game is a known quantity, you know whether you're going to buy it before it ever comes out. With N+, or Undertow, Band of Bugs, it's a lot tougher to interest the non-hardcore crowd on XBLA ... it's a fair point.

Let's just hope someone at MS actually listens to what they said, cause honestly, Raigan and Mare are right on the money.

Kuro @ Mar 24th 2008 4:06PM

Microsoft just doesn't have quality control. That's the problem right there.

Altairio @ Mar 24th 2008 3:28PM

If XBLA games suck
And N+ is an XBLA game
Then N+ sucks

Mark @ Mar 24th 2008 4:02PM

@stranger

"so diluted is the content and so poor is the XBLA navigation interface, that "new" or "original" games struggle to get noticed, much less purchased."

It's not like 30 are hitting every week. With only a few new ones a week users download the demos they think sound interesting. I'm not sure I agree that I agree there's any "dilution" of these titles. And let's not confuse "new" and "original" with "good". Let's not assume that just because something is new that it's worth purchasing and playing and any shortfall in sales are to be blamed on the way that XBLA is run or advertised. I'd like to see some stats that show "original" games are downloaded much less (not just slightly less) before I believe this claim. If anything, I know what Frogger plays like and don't need to download it. But I download the bunny game and play for a few seconds before I say "It's just bubble bobble with bunnies" and exit out.

"All you have to differentiate one game from another is the title and a gif image until you commit to downloading it the demo."

What kind of connection are you on that downloading the demo of an XBLA is a real commitment? With background downloading and automatic downloading, it's hardly even an inconvenience to download them. More of the inconvenience is that a lot of the games do a poor job of teaching you how to play. You have to work to find the enjoyment out of some of these. Developers could blame their poor sales on that. Pac-Man doesn't need to teach you how to play because I know how. If you model your original content around that teaching method and then have the game kill me over and over in the demo, then I'm probably not going to purchase your crap. I might be in the mood to plow through and figure out your game, but if I have other things to do, I'm just going to exit and delete. Don't go blaming anyone but yourself.

LaughingMan @ Mar 24th 2008 5:04PM

Quick question: When you are at Staples or Wal Mart, do you get exicted when you go over to their shovelware section and see must haves like "Bejewled 2" and "Diner Dash"? Of course not. Then why am I supposed to love them when they come on XBLA?

Oh and by the way this week release is "TiQual" Have fun with that one guys. It's great!!!!!!!! (sarcasm)

ccc @ Mar 24th 2008 6:26PM

These guys are kinda pissing me off with these statements.

N+ is a great game but I have over 50 aracde games and they are for the most part all great with only a few mistake purchases.

Screw these guys, I wont be buying any download content for N+ or anything else from this studio again. Arrogant assholes.

psyborg @ Mar 24th 2008 6:37PM

Man the XBLA has been getting shit on lately. I dunno personally I think its a pretty good service, Its some some crappy games here and there but what gaming platform doesn't?

AoE @ Mar 24th 2008 9:33PM

@LaughingMan,

I didn't realize that popcap games were the bulk of XBLA? Also... since when has Diner Dash been available on xbox live arcade? I'm just saying... you know... maybe at least use the service once, just once before sounding off? Oh... riiiiiiight sorry, forgot, this is the internet. You don't need any experience with something to have an opinion on it.

How did you feel about Rez? E4? Assault Heros? Mutant Storm? Cloning Clyde? Outpost Kaloki X? Shall I go on? There's a grip of good games available on xbox live arcade, that you can't be bothered to actually investigate the service doesn't mean it sucks.

ScallionN @ Mar 24th 2008 9:48PM

This is coming from guys who want royalties from what's just a slightly prettier version of a free flash game.... Lots of Live games suck, gj stating the obvious.

Clint @ Mar 24th 2008 11:53PM

I thought their rant was very arrogant and extremely dismissive of their fellow developers who have made some very qualitiy XBLA games. I won't go into a list as previous posters have already covered the majority of them.

N is sort of a cult classic on the PC and N+ is a critical darling on XBLA. I just hope they don't let their success get to their heads too badly, if it already.hasn't.

Flower Mane @ Mar 25th 2008 2:54PM

For Me, every Wednesday will be a disappointment until The Dishwasher: Dead Samurai comes out. Since playing the demo, I feel that this game is 'Head and Shoulders' no scratch that; 'Head and bottom of feet above the existing/future competition. Everything about the game is solid; the gameplay/controls, graphics and just pure excellence.

N+ will be an afterthought once this game is released.

Check out some videos of it on youtube.
heres one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQltbjsbUvw&feature=related